Mamta

Hi everyone and welcome to the Future of Work in Construction Concast. I’m delighted to introduce our next guests, Ed Horner and Simon Lewis. Ed is Head of Digital and Technology and Simon is the Relationship manager, both working for Hercules Site Services. Thanks both for joining me today, I really appreciate your time and how are you both doing? 

 

Ed

I'm getting there. 

 

Mamta 

Yeah, we had a little chat before this podcast, poor Ed had a few issues with Covid and family so we're hoping everyone's getting back to normal and getting better as well. So thank you for joining, especially, thank you for joining us. It's really interesting actually, I got tested positive for covid last September but ended up going on a resilience workshop that that day. And I was like, okay I can talk about resilience because I just got this positive test and then I'm going on over to this workshop. So you have to crack on with it right? 

 

Ed

Absolutely. Yes, you can't let it take you over, but you've just got to crack on. 

 

Mamta

Exactly, but thank you for joining me. So firstly, it would be really great if you could both tell us about your background as both of you come from different industries, and also your role and responsibilities at Hercules Site Services. So, who should start with? Who wants to go first?

 

Ed

I'm happy to lead. So I've been in digital for about 20 years really. It's one of these things that I kind of fell into to a large extent. A friend of mine was working at a small ISP in Cheltenham building websites and he said you know computers, come along and help do it. So I started my kind of journey from there. 

From there I moved to London, as one does in their twenties, and had various roles around the finance sector, running websites and things like that, and just getting that broader experience of digital. And I think going through that process is where I really worked out that I enjoy the more the project side, I'm not a marketer or that kind of thing. I prefer delivering things, making sure things are accurate, making sure things are right. 

And so I kind of just followed that kind of that path throughout my career and I wouldn't say I had a defined arc to follow but it was something that, you know, if you look for things they come up and you follow them and you find them which is actually kind of how I found Hercules. I had just finished working on open banking with Lloyds Bank and Brusk, the MD at Hercules, is an acquaintance and he started talking about what he was trying to do in digital. So I said to him okay, let me have a look and very quickly it became apparent that construction is ripe for digital, it is this one of these things where you know, I hadn't really considered it and I think is interesting sometimes that there isn't much cross  pollination between sectors. I know that from a finance side if you are a finance project manager, if you're a finance, whatever, those are the only roles you get. You're not really invited into telecoms. You're not invited to other things. So being able to move sectors was a really interesting challenge especially with how young construction was, at the time, or is really, I’ve only been for Hercules for two years but the amount we've managed to get through in that time and the kind of the changes you're already seeing coming through the sector. The need for digitalization is being pushed more and more from the Tier 1 suppliers now which it’s, I think, going to be a slow journey but we can obviously see that everybody's waking up to this. 

 

One of the first things I did when I joined Hercules was to look at their digital estate if you like or their strategy and Brusk was asking me ‘oh what’s your strategy’ and very quickly you realise actually, it's not a digital strategy he was asking for it’s actually a data strategy because so much of what happens in construction is data led. Hercules main role is getting boots on the ground, the labour supply but it is the information about that labour which is critical to the Tier 1’s for them to show reporting up through their project and everything else as well. So it was really interesting to see that from all parts of the business, if it was just about flow of data, if it’s about the person, if it's about the payroll and so everything is so digital nowadays, the fact that so much of construction is paper based just seemed, well, crazy quite simply. 

 

Mamta

Yes, I can imagine, what a challenge though to come on board and do that. You know, it's quite a mission to plough through stuff. So what are your responsibilities then in that case, what does your role look like day to day? 

 

Ed

So for me, I'm in a really exciting and lucky position really because we've formed Hercules Digital, a digital arm within the company. One of the things that Hercules is very good at is looking for growth opportunities. Most of the business , and it has been since the start, has been his labour supply but very early on in that it started doing their own civils works and price work. So, there's always been a bit of diversification. And in the last couple of years, there's been investment intersection escalator fleet, as well. So, you know, we're always looking at different ways of doing things and different ways to improve, both the business and the word a construction. So, yes, basically, I've got a quite a broad remit to make Hercules better digitally and make construction better digitally. 

 

It's one of these things which is that we can only, well, we've got so much we can do internally to improve our processes and we've already started it and we're already doing it. But what we're finding is that because we're pushing these boundaries is that when we talk to Tier 1 clients and people like that, it is in some ways we are ahead of where they are. Because we are small and agile we've got, you know, reporting APIs and we've got all of this stuff and we'll tell them we've got all this data about our workforce, we want to share it with you and they're saying, well, we'd love to have it but we're not ready to take it yet. 

 

So it's one of those things where it's really just kind of showing that Hercules is exemplar in that digital space and really showing that with the products that we've built internally, that we use for our own good. We're looking at how can those be rolled out wider and other opportunities to see a more improved or better digital processes throughout all of construction.

 

Mamta

Yeah, I think it's going to be a role model isn't it really to the rest of the industry? Especially if you're smaller as well, like you can push things through bit quicker I think. 

 

Simon

I think the size of Hercules is almost the perfect size for the way that we're approaching it. You know, you've got these giants within the construction industry that are, as I said earlier, like almost stuck in the mud, too big to change but we're big enough that we can speculate. We've got enough of our grounding in construction that we've got on the resources to be able to speculate, but we're small enough to be agile and push these changes through our company really quickly. So yes, we are, we are big enough to be noticed, small enough to make changes and be an example to these giant companies. It’s quite a special place to be.

 

Mamta

Absolutely. Before this, we were talking about your journey as well. So please tell us a bit more about your career and how you've come to this place. 

 

Simon

So, I actually started as a graphic designer over 20 years ago. And I've worked with some fantastic companies the Guardian Media group and then MC Saatchi and then slowly but surely through design and meeting people and being, I suppose, becoming more senior I became quite aware that I was more of a people person than I was a designer. I mean I love to sit down and draw flowers in a field, it's wonderful but I actually became a front of house person, meeting and agreeing and scoping out projects and problems was more of my remit. So, I started moving into the management side of the digital agencies and becoming, I suppose, a new business person so meet and greet, get to the bottom of the problems because of my grounding I always had a really good idea of how to solve digital issues. I've spent 20 years now scoping out people's issues working them out and selling into new industries and sectors. This started in the tech industries, I was selling into big tech companies like HPE or Dell those types of companies and obviously with a big push for everyone to digitally to transform. 

 

I suppose I just ended up meeting and greeting and then one of the sectors that I never managed to get near was construction. It was like it was a fortified space where you’re in it or you’re out of it, they’re the options. You don't, especially as a digital company selling into a construction space that’s protected, well you just weren’t welcome, you were distrusted. I was always told by these companies find a way in, find a way in. And then, I would see one company that was leading the way in the digital space, breaking the mould of construction. That was Hercules and it pinged up on my radar a few times. And, and I was like well how are they different? And that actually became a reference point for me. When I was speaking to other construction companies the conversations were pretty much, right, you guys are not moving. You are essentially just sluggishly, dragging your feet. Look there, there's a company there that are really innovating and evolving very quickly and you can see how it's benefiting them. 

 

They aren't a digital company that have just been put in a construction space, they are a construction company that have answered a few questions with their data strategy, their digital strategy. Whether they like it or not, they are growing exponentially now because of these changes and the growth they are benefiting from, they are able to run with it, instantly, it doesn't cause a problem with them with a capacity or capabilities at all. Their digital strategy means that they can grow and it's not a problem for them and it's and yeah, Hercules are an anomaly. And yes, I want to see more of it. 

 

Mamta

Absolutely. I think it's interesting because you know most people would probably give up if there was an industry that keeps shutting the door on them but what I love, I feel inspired by, is that you just kept pushing to get in there some how, right? 

 

Simon

Yeah, I suppose it is banging my head against the wall a little bit Hercules aren't embryonic because they've actually done some amazing stuff. Not many companies have their own apps, we have our own apps that answer construction problems that we face. It’s a very difficult thing to describe the reason I've ended up at Hercules, I’ve navigated my way through the digital industry, like an angry wasp. I like, literally,  bouncing off one thing into another and there was no real part that I took but I've ended up, thankfully, at Hercules with Ed and before Ed was a Wayne, who's paved the way digitally. And it's such a clear course, a path that we're able to actually now become like consultants within the construction space digitally and building apps and portals for other companies. 

 

Mamta

And what's your day today responsibilities as a relationship manager? What is it that you do in the organisation?

 

Simon

So the relationship manager side of it is actually to do within the fact we work with HS2. So we provide, as Ed said previously, we are predominantly our labour supply company. I managed the relationship between us and HS2 to make sure that the northern section of HS2 has the people that it needs. I also go and meet and greet the people and then try and work out other issues they need and sell any other services that we have. 

 

That's the relationship management side of what I do. But actually, because of my background, I've ended up working very closely with Ed to look at the things that we're trying to do, there are problems that we're trying to answer internally digitally and also externally with the clients that we have. 

 

So again, we work very closely with Belfor Beatty and we are building various digital projects, I don’t’ know how much I can say about them but there's a lot of things underway and yeah, it's ongoing. So I mean it's a 50/50 split, but relationship manager is 50% of my job and then the other 50% is working closely with Ed as a digital consultant. That's what I call myself. 

 

Mamta

I like that. And that means you can go to any industry basically. Yeah, that's brilliant. 

Thank you so much for that. I know that Ed you're mentioning that there are challenges, it's not going to be easy to make the changes, although you are slowly doing it. What would you like to see over the next three to five years change the industry to make it more digitally available and accessible? 

 

Ed

I think it's an interesting one because the main part of how Hercules started it’s digital journey was the creation of it’s recruitment app. This was built around, well, is going from looking from the worker, you know, Hercules Site Services is a labour supplier. So, looking at labour workers is what we do. And so let's say, how can we make construction better for them? I think one of the big issues you see in construction and digital is that it's very top down, it's big software coming in from the top and that's quite impenetrable, I mean, it's a lot about projects. It's a lot of lot about project management. And those, you know, those are big problems that you need solutions for, but there are hundred and thousands of small problems in construction, in any industry. And so actually looking at from the ground up gives you a much better understanding sometimes of what issues actually need to be faced and what needs to be sorted. I think that was one of the things that the recruitment app did and I think that's why it's struck such a nerve and brought Hercules such attention. It's that something that matches workers with their skills and actual qualifications, then there's a ticket as we call it, that somebody has to have to a radius around a job. So you know, fatigue management and all of these things as we understand as a labour supplier, are concerns of the industry but no Tier 1 is saying ‘oh, I want you to put in solutions that make sure that we get a happy, local workforce’, they're not going to ask that of a supplier. They expect supplies to work that out for themselves and the fact that Hercules has got ahead of the game and done that two years ahead, really pushed ahead has shown that that's the kind of way to look at this. The recruitment  app has been live, we’ve quickly followed that up with an onboarding app, which is converting into an HR app. So we've now onboarded people completely paperlessly and it's this kind of thing where again construction is seen as quite a luddite, slow thing. And when the recruitment app was being started, it was ‘nobody's ever going to use it’. And then when we were doing the onboarding app, it was like, ‘well I'm sure some people might use it’. We now have 85% of people on boarding through that app. The first guy through the onboarding app was a 54 year old Ghanaian, who I'm pretty sure two years ago people would have said he’ll never do it. 

 

As you know digital is everywhere, you know, it's so pervasive now. I have an old boss that used to talk about companies in the early 1900s, they used to have chief electrical officers. Electricity was so disrupted that they needed somebody to come in and kind of work out how do you use this new thing to make our company better? And I think, you know, it's interesting, chief digital officers were a thing for a while. But I think now it's kind of gone beyond that, digital is like electricity now. It is just embedded in everything that happens that it doesn't need to be treated separately. It should be treated as business, it's not digital is this, it's just business now. And I think that's where we, that's how we look at it and try and build things.

 

Mamta

You know, it's interesting, isn't it because you want people to, what I was thinking about was when you was talking is the buying as well from different stakeholders and from people. So like you know it's all and well having been there and wanting to change stuff but often in companies you're sort of blocked because people don't want to change in that direction. So, what kind of obstacles have you come across on your journeys? Both of you and have you overcome them? 

 

Ed

I think from my side I think it's really as I say having done this digital journey transformation in finance for 20 years, you can see the kind of the big monolithic change happens. You know it's the CEO and the board know they need to be digital and they have a digital team who tells them everything needs to be digital but actually bringing that digital message literally, as you're saying like with electricity, bringing it through every single layer of that company and so everybody understands that, moving towards this way of doing stuff. I wouldn't say there's been blockers so much like that. I think it's just, it just takes time, you know and I think we expect that. As I say, we've tried to say oh we can give you data in certain ways and they're like what we'd love to but they've probably got a digital roadmap somewhere where, they're still going through committees and all the rest of it and you know once they've got to that they need to then put it through all of their systems. 

 

So, you know, it is that large business piece, especially with these Tier 1’s where they talk a great game and they really have amazing stuff they want to achieve, but it's difficult as a big company and I think that's where we've got that advantage as a small company. 

 

So, you know, so I think for us it's that we're going to keep on delivering the stuff we can  because if it's good for us it's good for us, you know? And then if we can make it good for other companies as well, well, they can kind of catch up if you like.

 

Simon

I think that's it. It's going back to your point earlier on, it is like waiting to take you from a top down or a boots on the ground up type of approach. So approaching a construction company and saying we can make changes digitally for you guys, it's like such a overwhelming thing for them. 

 

But actually the way we started was with how can we make it easier for an individual to find a job? That one person, we weren’t looking at how do we make more money out of projects, how to make more money out of structures or how can we benefit? You know, it wasn't a whole company overview, it was the small incremental molecular change. How do we get Joe to find a job easier? How do we make it so that Steve isn't unemployed when it comes to next week, okay? Well, we stream line part of the process of them finding jobs. 

 

How do we make it so that gang of construction workers or operatives isn't driving across the country for the job. Okay, we'll just answer that small question there, that one problem and we'll make something that makes that thing easier, okay? Whether you do these as singular standalone or whether you tie some of these problems together, you end up with an app or you end up with a process and this is a digital transformation piece and then you end up taking that strategy throughout the whole company and that's what's been able. So one of the barriers is telling them to this huge company but we've answered these problems for ourselves and now they can see the change from the top down and we're able to from the bottom up. But it's a way of advancing that question, that people aren't willing to take that process, that long winded process to get to that the results, but we've managed to do it. So now we are, fortunately, working alongside these companies to do this, to answer these questions. 

 

Mamta

It's amazing isn't it really that you're on site, being consultants and helping them do the change? I don't know if you can speak about it too much or how much you can tell me, but what are the exciting projects planned over the next sort of year or two, can you tell me a bit more about that? 

 

Ed

Well, the main thing for us is to keep on improving our own processes and things like that. Making sure that, you know, Hercules is an employer of choice for workers. That is just our bread and butter as far as I'm concerned. We've working with HS2 on something around just reporting, I mean it's one of the least sexy things, I mean I was talking to an innovation manager and a manager at HS2 and when I said how do you want this to look? One manager said sexy and amazing, the other guy said functional because sometimes that's what innovation is. Innovation is not necessarily creating something new, it’s taking something existing and using it and using it in a better way to improve things. So, yes, HS2 will have drones flying over and 3D models and digital twins and all these amazing pieces of absolutely, eye watering technology but you know, just completely echoing what Simon said which is that from the ground up, people have to do their jobs and you know that there's and we need to make those efficiencies where it actually matters. It's great having some massive great big monolithic system that measures everything and keeps track of everything. Actually, if you're not making it easier for the people to do it at that entry level, then actually, it’s actually slowing things down. So yeah, I mean I think it is looking at opportunities like that. Just looking at the northern section of HS2, as we are seeing issues with how the labour is working there it's like oh, look we can help. This isn’t something that is going to be industry wide necessarily, it’s that we can do a digital solution for your problem but the way we look at it will be ei based, it will be interconnected, it will be all those things that you need to build. So actually it's built smartly, it's not building one tool for one job and it will only ever do that job and it will hold all the information inside of it and it wont give it out to everyone, we believe in that kind of portability of data. But you know, if we're taking this data in, we should be able to share it with all the other systems that need it because then all of a sudden you can have a lot of neat solutions that do really good jobs. I mean apps themselves, they are little things that do little jobs. Just eat, it gives me food. The point being is if you want to do a 12-part journey you do it a different way. If you want a car right now, you do this.

 

And you know you sometimes you've got to break these problems down into the smaller pieces and answer those well, rather than trying to do a massive job at 70%, because all we're going to do then is focus on that 30% that isn't right, it's just going to weigh you down. So I think what we're looking at and we're offering our services in is in those kind of areas where we think we deliver something that is actually going to be a useful solution that can fit into a wider piece rather than ‘here's a solution, use it or not’.

 

Mamta

Absolutely. And it's interesting actually because Ed spoke about the Ghanaian chap who used the app who wouldn't have done it before basically. Obviously what I'm really interested in as well, and have been in this podcast when we speak to different people, is you know diversity making processes equitable and equal and also including people as well. 

So, are you taking that aspect into consideration when you are creating your transformation and your apps and technology as well? 

 

Ed

Absolutely. I mean, and I think that that's one of those things that is so key digitally that it’s got to be open to everyone and I joke that I'm head of digital but I'm insisting that these aren't digital only processes because if somebody doesn't want to do it digitally, why should they? We can't force people down a route that they don't want to go down. 

 

Anything, we build digitally should be accessible, easy to use, it should be all of those things. It's got to be seen as a broad useful piece for everyone. And so if that's onboarding, if they want to use paper forms, well that of course they can, if that's going to be better for them. I think there's a danger, especially in digital, and I've seen it in some of the financial places I've worked where there's a kind of middle aged, middle class expectation about what digital is, ‘well, everybody's got that, everybody can do this’. Well no, they really can't. 

 

One of the great advantages of being in Hercules is that we user tested onboarding with users, with actual people who would use it because there are employees. So, you know, we can go through those things and make sure that they’re usable and accessible and work for everyone because you need to. Just assuming things, especially in digital, is a very dangerous route to go down, I think. Assuming that everybody can do it digitally, assume everyone wants to do it digitally, I've always worked on the principle that if you make it easy and seamless people choose it, if they want to. And so I think that 85% of people who use it at the moment, you know what, that might be our max. It might be, there's just 15% either for time or preference or whatever, we're doing through a different way and I'm absolutely fine that. I'm not giving myself a KPI of 99% of people coming through the app because that's not what we should be doing. We should be making sure that we've set these things up for the right people. 

 

Simon

And that's that comes true as well when you develop these processes yourself. And you haven't just brought in a piece of software built by a software house to answer all of the questions, you know, that behemoth bit of kit that will do it all. So that's true in that space as well. We've done these little molecular changes and what it's actually answered is a bigger question and a bigger problem. But if you try and answer it all at once, with some bit of software there's not fit for purpose when shoehorning into a company, that doesn't really work out and that's why there's that distrust and why it's so difficult to transform within construction. 

 

Mamta

Yeah and I think it's forced upon people, isn't it? Like I've seen that in companies, so you have to use this, there isn’t any other option. And it also reminds you of my dear parents who who go to doctors surgery to make an appointment, but they can't because they have to use the app but they cant figure it out so they’re stuck in a loop, so I spend hours with them trying to figure it out, which I think is really unfair too. Especially if you’re elderly, they're not including them in that process. If they did one thing one way, then just keep it that way until you can educate them and go forwards, but I think it's so flawed isn't it sometimes? 

 

Ed

I mean it's funny, we would joke about ,you know, it was a thing where ‘oh you know that recruitment app will never work because John on the site has still got his Nokia’ or whatever. And our answer has always been ‘but we're not going to wait for John and his Nokia to leave sight before we start looking better stuff’  but if John wants to do it on his Nokia or wants to do on paper, he's welcome to. 

 

And I think, I mean, this is very out of date research but I remember reading around people's reticence. The amount of people who are online, you can see the statistics where the number of people online to the number of people who are comfortably online and the people who are reluctantly on line and it's really quite telling that, you know, some people are doing because they have to, that's not what we should be doing. We should be creating things that people want to use and are able to use and then always leaving doors open for them to do it, in the kind of channel of choice or the way they want to do it as well. 

 

Mamta 

Yeah, absolutely. So how far back are we speaking about the Nokia is that with the snake game? Is that that old?

 

Ed

I imagine it would be yeah.

 

Mamta

You can’t do much with that then in that case to be fair. 

 

Ed

It’s like outside our process. 

 

Mamta

I was thinking about construction as I've met some amazing people and talk to some amazing people, is that attracting someone to that industry is quite difficult especially young people as well. And I guess, you know what because I’m thinking I want to work for Hercules now because I’m like, yeah, I'll join because, you are doing some amazing things and you are being very minded about it which is, which is really wonderful to hear. 

 

But how would you, I mean, how can we attract more young people into this industry and diversity, like women and people of colour? And, you know, all types of the different backgrounds. And what can we do as an industry to kind of do that? 

 

Ed

As I always say on these things digital is not an answer, digital is a tool that can be used to you know, if you have easy digital processes that will make it easier for digital natives, the younger people, to get into this and they won't see it as ‘oh, you need to know someone and you need to fill in a form and you need to phone this guy’ and it's like, oh wait a minute, that's all things that aren't in my comfort zone. 

 

So if you can kind of do that, I mean it’s certainly amazing stuff and we see it more and more now with the work we do with the Tier 1’s, which is around how much we are expected to deliver the social value along with construction. And I think that that's social value piece is critical, but it's not something that's going to happen quickly. 

 

Our workforce is predominantly male, I can't remember the exact things but we know that we have an ageing part and a not so quite so ageing part of it but we do need and the industry knows it needs this flow of new people into it and I think by doing things digitally it offers up things that people are comfortable with and through those social value pieces that we get involved with and it is actually a major part of what we do now. 

 

It's one of these things where I'm sure actually maybe even two years ago when I joined it was ‘oh yes, we have to, we do this, we do that’ whereas now that social value strategy as we're putting in tenders and bids is part of, is one of the key things we look at to make sure that we understand what we're going to do and how we're going to deliver it. 

 

I think that's one of those things that you have to give back more than just that, because you have to help the industry help itself and so doing that and being willing to work in those areas is something that yeah, I mean, it's come around because of demographics and everything but it’s just that journey. I've got to say the idea of the app when it ever started three years ago was, how do you attract young people into construction? You give them a digital journey, you know? I mean, it's a little bit one plus one equals two but it's still the right kind of thinking and that right kind of, you know, and that's what as I say with Hercules, it's just thinking that bit differently. And what can we do to try and make this different? What can we do to try and just make a difference and be better? 

 

Simon

Yeah. How do you modify the process to just open more doors and it's that opportunity piece isn't it? It's not the outcome that we're trying to modify at all. The outcome will be the outcome. They'll be as many people from as many backgrounds, ethnicity or sex, that’s well, it’s not set in stone but it will be what it will be but how do you open up the doors? And it's, you just find a process that's acceptable to more and more people and then obviously digitisation and apps and automation in the way to do that. 

 

So how do you bring more of anybody into anything? You just make it available to absolutely everybody and all end in that sector. Yes. So yes this is the availability of isn't it rather than the outcome.

 

Mamta

It really is and you know that's what attracts people to it as well. And I think both what both you have shown, especially here in this podcast, is that you have come from different industries, you have changed your career, it is possible to get into construction if you want to as well. And Hercules was a really great way to do it I guess. 

 

I was going to ask actually before we finish you guys have got to this point in your careers and I know people listening would love to hear more about how you're going to take that forward? So what are you're aspirations over the next few years, where would you like to be and how you'd like to progress your career continuing forwards?

 

Simon

Well, I want to see as Hercules continues to grow, I want to see the different departments. We've got four kind of major services and I want to see the digital department become its own standalone entity, that is a trusted partner to the big behemoth companies to answer those questions that they just can't seem to move fast enough. You know, digital transformation is still this buzzword that no one really wants to approach. I'd love Hercules to be the go-to for construction when it comes to starting that journey and that has actually,  that's already underway. 

 

Mamta

I love that. That's really lovely. How about you Ed? 

 

Ed

I agree with Simon. We have such an opportunity here. We have such experience and we're in the right part of the market, in the sector and, it's so right for change. There’s one weird thing that's around which is time sheets, it's the most bizarre thing. How it works differs per site, and it's not digitised, and it's done with scrawls of paper and photocopying. And oh, it is just the most mind numbingly, non-digital process. And I mean, Simon mentioned Wayne, who used to be the head of innovation here and we used to sit down for hours and try and work how this would all fit together. And the issue we have is we're Hercules, we can't turn around to Balfour Beatty or Kia and say, well, we're only coming on site if you use this solution. 

 

Simon

Yeah, we wouldn’t work with anyone if that was the case.

 

Ed

We have these solutions, we have these ideas but we just don't necessarily have the ability to deliver them. But I think as Simon says if in the next few years we're building out these relationships and we're becoming these trusted partners and we're working innovatively with those Tier 1’s then hopefully we would be partnered with them to start driving these things through. Because, you know, that's how we want to be. We want to work collaboratively, we don't want to deliver stuff to people and say, use this, use this. We want to work with people, to create something that works for everyone. 

 

Mamta

Yeah. Absolutely. And I think that's a really exciting place to be, there’s so much you can do going forward, there's so much change, so much to get your teeth stuck into as well. And I think that, you know, it's inspirational to listen to and for anyone listening in, please feel free to reach out to Ed and to Simon, especially about changing your career as well and moving careers because often when I meet people, they're stuck in their career and they want to do something different and make an impact elsewhere. So I think if you guys reach out to these, these wonderful people who we have chatted to today that would be amazing. Thank you so much for joining me today, I really appreciate your time and your stories and your conversation and hopefully, yes, please reach out to the guys and we'll speak to you soon. Take care. 

 

Ed

Thank you very much. 

 

Simon

Thank you.